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Marc Palmer added a comment - 18/Sep/06 11:33 AM
Don't forget to VOTE for this issue if you want to keep ANT builds and can see through the Maven smokescreen!
Exhibit A - Cocoon requires a special page explaining how to work around Maven 2 build problems:
http://cocoon.zones.apache.org/daisy/documentation/g1/1164.html Why ship products that use broken or vulnerable build systems? There you go Ben... the somewhat cool side effect of Marc's issue is that if it gets enough votes to be actioned, then (weirdly) you will have actually have nothing to do.
Rock on! This ones got my vote. Maven, in my opinion, has been far more hassle than its worth in two projects I have been involved in (Cocoon and Groovy)
Another vote from me. I hope this doesn't make you take this issue less seriously.
Helping maven users is a good thing, hurting others to do so is not the Spring Way. Please let me download spring and build it without needing a network connection or maven. maven2 works fine for many projects, but ant ALWAYS works, whereas maven (due to either a bad upload, bad network connection, bad poms, bad project setup) tends to fail for me about 30% of the time. Don't be evil! I'd like to vote against this issue!
Instead of childishly complaining to Spring about Maven issues, you guys should be voting in Maven's Jira, so these issues will be fixed in Maven. Oh, by the way, that cocon page about maven issues linked above has actually nothing todo with Maven and just explaining how to get around instability of the ibiblio repository. They could just created their own repository mirror for their dependencies... or just put these mirror settings into cocon poms.
Eugene: to vote aginst, vote in
Sorry, this is kind of backwards. Maven creates jars. And jars work with Ant. Moving the build to M2 won't break Ant projects that use the artifacts.
If you don't want to use Maven, don't. Even if you develop for Spring, it's unlikely that you'll ever have to touch Maven, and a lot less likely than having to touch build.xml for the same change. Ant never "just works", quite the opposite actually. Ant only creates artifacts after laborious tuning of the procedural build file that drives it. This is like saying we shouldn't have EJB 3 because everything is possible without it. At least Maven works for standard layouts out of the box. This issue gets my -1 as well. The implication of the announcement is that Spring will not be downloadable containing all its required dependencies, and will not be buildable from source using a pure ANT build shipped with the product.
If this is indeed correct it will be a major retrograde step. You are mising apples with oranges, building with maven doesn't prevent bundling all dependencies.
About including an Ant script, well that depends, the same way people building with ant don't provide a makefile Guys, no worries - I'm a dedicated Ant lover myself :-)
From my perspective, this is not so much about Spring core moving to a purely Maven2-related build. Spring core has some specific building and testing requirements that work well now but are rather hard to achieve in Maven. My opinion on this is to never change a working system unless you really gain something significant; this also applies to a build process. The Maven2 efforts are more about the sister projects (such as Spring Web Flow and Spring Web Services) using Maven2 and relying on mavenized Spring core jars. This is certainly worth doing, since have much more "traditional" dependency structures and building requirements. Juergen On the maven Jira, can we create an issue for them to stop development and deprecate it? ;-)
ROFL Jason - genius! It is very amusing to wonder whether or not an open source project would actually listen to a huge number of (former) users and actually discontinue it at the users' request. Ha!
Think of all the time they've put in - they could have made a simpler cleaner build system by now I'm sure! :) yeah, nothing wrong with improving the lives of maven users (they deserve a lot of sympathy for what they have to put up with), as long as you don't end up punishing the eise (but silent) majority for the loud and obnoxious minority. Thanks for clarifying Juergen!
-1
I am happy m2 user and ANT vs M2 feels like JDBC vs Hibernate to me. Yes, you can do it better in JDBC, but no, 99.99% of the users won't do it better. M2 is growing up, the central repo is getting cleaned up (spring's pom will help a lot in this). Last time I tried to build drools and setup my idea environment and run all test cases... it took me 5 minutes ("mvn install idea:idea"). Last time I tried to build spring and setup my idea environment and run all test cases... I gave up FWIW, our test cases are not meant to be run an IDE in their entirety. I never ever do this myself (using IDEA too, BTW); all I run in the IDE is individual tests. We never bothered with specific IDE support in our build (like Drools seems to have) simply because noone ever asked for it.
The only supported way of running our test cases is the "tests" target in our Ant script, which will work nicely out of the box provided that you use the "-with-dependencies" download, even without Internet connectivity. I firmly believe that rebuilding Spring and running the entire test suite should be done on the command line, and couldn't be simpler there. That said, of course we could provide such command-line build facilities based on Maven 2 as well. I'm just arguing that the present build is perfectly sufficient for rebuilding and running the test suite on the command line, which is the definitive way of building and running tests in the first place. Juergen I very much like running unit tests in my IDE as it is much easier to select a subset of tests to execute. I also assume there's something wrong with tests that cannot be run in an IDE.
Btw, all this Maven bashing is rather ridiculous. Ant just doesn't do the job efficiently if you are looking for a reliable, standardized build in a complex enterprise environment that has to deal with many applications and complex dependencies. -1 for this one Huh? How can this issue be 'in progress'? This issue is the lowest of low hanging fruit... there ain't nothing to do if you are addressing it.
Are you telling me you are actively doing nothing Ben? :) |
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Improvement
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Do NOT migrate Spring to purely Maven build. It will be a travesty!